Marty Rogers Interview Transcript

Interviewee: Martin Rogers

Interviewer: Dylan Garcia

Date: April 5th, 2017 

Place: Melrose Bronx, New York NY

Transcriber: Dylan Garcia

DG: I’m here with Marty Rogers and it is April 5th [2017] and this is for Displaced Urban Histories, NYU Gallatin, Spring 2017. I Guess we’ll just start off by you telling me a little about yourself, your history, where you come from, family, geography, culture, things like that.

MR: Okay, my name is Marty Rogers, I’ve lived in New York all my life. My family’s been in New York all their life, my family’s been here so long… I think somebody in my mother’s family fought in the civil war, we always said to her which side, thank god she said the North. *laughs* Ethnically my family’s Irish, German, Swiss, and a few others. they’ve been here since the late 1800s, no connection to Europe, New York is our home always was our home, and I grew up in this community, in this neighborhood. My mom’s family moved from 71st and York Avenue on the East side to here in 1927 and we always said, “Mom why didn’t you stay on York and 71st?” and she said, “Well in those days it was so crowded and congested and polluted coming to the Bronx was like coming to the country.” *laughs* More open space. And this historically was farm country, there were breweries around here and we got good water, and we had space, and we had German people and all other people who wanted to drink beer. I have two older brothers and a younger sister, and I live here with my beautiful wife Francine we have three great kids and I grew up in this community and was educated in this community and a member of the Immaculate Conception Church our church is very important its served as an anchor for the community, Ive worked, lived here I’ve worked 38 years with the community resource center which is a local non for profit which ran group home for developmentally disabled people, they still do. Im basically retired now, but I stay busy, because theres so many things to be a part of in the community. So Thats a little bit of my background. 

DG: So your family has basically your family has lived in New York all there lives, do you know how that happened? Did they come through Ellis Island?

MR: I don’t know if they got through Ellis Island they came by boat. They lived down on the 30’s when they first came down…. on Essex Street. Basically were here and we don’t know any body else who’s in our family who is anywhere else like out west or anything like that. So basically blue collar works. The story of my family like so many is education. When we were coming up, my generation was the first generation that was told you’re going to college. Before that it was only “rich people” who could go to college. My father left grammar school in the 7th grade- and but he-you thought you’d be murdered if you didn’t go to college, because education’s very important, same with my mom, my father had a 7th grade education, my mother had two years of high school but again they could read and write and do everything and wonderful people but the stress was you’re going to college. I had too older brothers they went to college I didn't really want to go but I had no choice, later on my mom said, “We never thought you’d go,” I said, “I didn't think I had a choice I thought you guys would kill me if I didn't go to college.” Plus in my time was the Vietnam War, so you went to college because you could get a college deferment to stay out of the Vietnam War. So no disrespect to the veterans but that was a terrible war and my fathers a World War II vet but he used to say to me and my brothers, “you’re not going to that war because that war’s ridiculous okay that not a true war… “ So thats basically it, I went to Colonel hayes High School. I’m Catholic by faith and got a great Catholic school education. Grammar school Colonel Hayes High School is a small catholic boys high school and I went to City College and thank god I was able to go to Hunter for a masters degree. 

DG: Tell me a little about your childhood, growing up here what was it like in sort of the neighborhood sense.

MR: I always say this, it was a great place to grow up we grew up on 151st street almost the whole block is the school and around the block is the church. and in the summer we were a play street, which meant they closed the street, no traffic could go through and there was always some organized, usually though he church and we had games and we owned the street and we played all day long we played stick ball, I love stick ball we still play stick ball one day a year on our block. At night we played games like Ring-a-levio. We played so many street games but that’s how we did it in those days we played other guys on other blocks. There was a sense of ownership that this was our block. It wasn’t like gangs like we’d fight other people who’d come down the block first of all we weren't that tough. We just wanted to play sports, street games. In that sense it was good. Now there was a part of it that was… was there was just this prevailing sense that drugs were coming in strong, drugs create crime, crime makes the streets not safe, the buildings not safe, makes you scared, people break into buildings, they break into schools, churches, they don’t give a damn if they’re using and stores and cars and anything, all bets are off. There was just a sense when we were growing up, people mugged in the streets, snatching pocket books, there was just this sense that things were going awry, but I also thought that that was happening in the entire world, I thought the whole world was experiencing these things, also in the tv you did see, I remember when Dr. King was assassinated and you were like, “Oh my god the tension on thew streets…” Even though this always kind of a.. where I grew it was a racially mixed neighborhood, Black, White, Hispanic, largely Puerto Rican at that time, so it was a mixed community, we had friends of all races, that was a great equalizer, school was a great equalizer, I’m glad I had two older brothers because they were on the good curve of things and educating me on issues of the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War they were schooling me which was fabulous. So growing up then there was also this sense that all hell was braking loose okay it was just a ritual that just friends from your class, it almost seemed like it summertime one family just disappeared, like were moving “goodbye” and never came back. And people always said its true the phrase they use is White Flight, but I always say it was across the board flight, stable families, White Black and Puerto Rican it was a certain point in time there would be a straw that broke the camels back, and there would be no drama about it you’d just here so and so’s moving. And it was a sadness because you lost your friends. They were taking up stakes and going…North Bronx, we thought that was far away Fordham Road it’s not that far away, or other places, so that was part of the situation. So in that sense that was a shadow over the childhood but we thought it was normal and I appreciate growing up in this environment because it teaches you there’s evil in the world theres not evil people, drugs are horrible, normal people became addicted and did things they normally would not do like steal beat people up break into apartments terrible stuff. On the other hand I would never trade growing up here for nothing because it taught you so much and it was a great moral lesson, and at the end, grounded me in many ways. 

DG: Did you had any friend that you grew up with that got caught up by the drugs?

MR: What was happening was people… it gets to 8th grade, high school, and then college was different ‘cuz that wasn’t in the neighborhood it wasn’t far but that was a big world going to college even though it’s City College it’s not far. What really happened was which still happens in New York people just disappear, they just kinda’ disappear and then you say, “What happened to so and so” and they would say, “Awe man I heard he’s messed up.” Or the family would move. But you saw, I remember a guy in particular who came back from Vietnam and he was a strapping dude, and then he looked like hell, and he was addicted to heroin and you were like, “What the hell” and the big thing out in my day all in the street was drinking, families almost gave you a medal if you drank beer because you at least weren't smoking pot. We were deathly afraid we would never - I mean I would never… heroin cocaine… the heavy drugs and again I say it’s a lesson because I saw it… I saw people stoned out of their mind, I saw people who looked like walking skeletons and I said, “What could drive you to that situation.” No judgment attached just it scared the shit out of you, so I was never going to go that way. Which was bad too because it made alcohol so acceptable I have a shit-load of friends who are in AA. It was kind of the time too, all bets were off, there was tremendous license. 

DG: So you had friend maybe that you were growing up with that maybe you were really close with when you were young and maybe they disappeared.

MR: Yeah there were guys that just kinda disappeared, now that we had this play street and the school and the church were an anchor, I have friends now that I grew up with and I still go to a baseball game with them I’m… we were a band of brothers… I have childhood friends that come back for stickball or they come back to watch because their legs are shot.*laughs* I have childhood friends that I grew up with and thank god they’re in tact, and we get together and we… support each other  and… you know… still know each other. Now there are always those people who… I don’t have any real blood close friends who just kinda’ fell of the… The guys you knew that you would say what ever happened to so and so and they’re like, “Yo I heard he’s screwed up I heard he lives in Florida now I heard he’s using I heard he got arrested” So there were those guys who became lost in the dark side. 

DG: Were there any places in the neighborhood that you avoided did you know spots that you knew not to go to?

MR: Absolutely I mean the word was, our block, you felt safe on our block and the general vicinity, but there was certain sense that if you were going to go, like we have a lot of public housing; 99% of people who live in public housing are hard working, trustworthy, friends of mine, go to the church. 99%. 1 or 2% are knuckleheads, are in my opinion, not a scientific survey, are selling out of the apartments, heroin marijuana all kinds of crazy stuff oxycontin, all kinds of drugs and guns. And those 1 or 2 % are very successful of screwing up the buildings and peeing in the hallway and those of the things which are quality of life issues. So yes when we were growing up we would kinda go around but it was lets go around in a group not that we were in like gangs or crews but just for safety and you shouldn’t go by yourself, go with a few friends but I would say there would be a rubber band of like 6 blocks, stay within the 6 and then once you got beyond the 6 blocks you don't really know anybody. Uou may know 1 or 2 people but you don’t really-and they don’t know you and then you kinda gotta flip thing because I’m white that it easy to pick on the white guy, okay *laughs* and that wasn’t fun. So I always prided myself, I got mugged once or twice but my father taught me to fight, Not fist and cuff but we fought in the street to and you weren't going to let nobody push you around so you were going to fight but then you had to be carful if guys had a knife or something there were no guns in those days I mean you were worried about getting punched, hit with a stick, a chain maybe, maybe a knife but now it’s so bloody dangerous with these crazy knuckleheads with these guns. There was a perimeter. One place that was always safe to go was Yankee Stadium, we’d walk to Yankee Stadium we’d go in groups, we loved the Yankees, and thats our backyard its 12 blocks from us were proud of that too. There were definitely certain places you wouldn't go and there were certain places you would NEVER go at night and there still are. 

DG: Same sort of Places? Or they’ve moved around a little bit probably?

MR: They’ve moved a little bit some have not moved much at all, but I will go there now, I will go there now, Because… why…because my neighbors live there. Now I’m going with young people sometimes from the church the school or the documentary center. So when we go back from the game you don’t say goodbye you say, “Wait were you going” they say, “I’m going home” you say, “no no i’ll walk you.” Especially the young ladies we walked them you walk a person to their door, but thats the New York thing. 

DG: Tell me a little bit more about how specifically you’re involved in the neighborhood how you got involved in the community with gardening and explained what you do specifically. 

I’m very pleased to always meet with the young people ‘cuz I admire you and I’m glad that theres an interest in this community. and i was in the community and you saw thing buildings being burnt. destruction and there was always this sense that you should be a good citizen and be involved, and then there was also a sense that the city’s corrupt and the politicians are totally corrupt and just stay away from that. And there was a sense that it was pointless you're hittin’ your head against the wall you cant fight City Hall. We were always somewhat socially conscious, but the tipping point was me and my wife got married and we made a conscious decision to be in this neighborhood and to raise children in this neighborhood and in 1986 and she was teaching in the South Bronx and I could walk to work, but right around the block is the firehouse and believe it or not in 1986 the city of New York said they were going to close our firehouse, and we said wait a minute, did you never here the story about how the South Bronx burned down? and you’re going to close the firehouse? It was the 23rd busiest firehouse in the city of New York engine 41. And the city said they were going to move it but by moving it they were going to close another Engine company. Well make a long story short, and it was a long story, from 1986 to 1990 we fought to have it not moved, public hearings, mobilization, demonstrations in the street. And this was all brought about by a wonderful group called the South Bronx People for change and our church we were the Social Action Committee in our church, and if we knew what we were getting into I don”t think we would’ve done it, but we got into a war with the city of New York. and allied with us in the course of this were elected officials and [we] really had to grab the by the collar sometimes and the fire department union and I met so many incredible people and we fought, fought, fought and we got money in the city budget to keep our fire house, we had a lot of great support by the city council and the mayor was Ed Koch and on May 4th 1990, Ed Koch in spite of all the money that was there, he close the firehouse and that son of a… we… he broke our heart and he closed our firehouse, and some people told us, “you guys fought a great fight you have nothing to be ashamed of but its over.” and now we said, “wait a minute, what more can you do to us? now you close our firehouse,” so we did not stop, we continued to fight and put it in the public eye we had a lawsuit we kept pushing trying to breathe life into that bloody thing and Koch was leaving office and everyone who was running for mayor we brought every single one of them to this block and pointed at that building and said, “yo are you going to open a firehouse?” and they all promised, and David Dinkins became the mayor and David Dinkins reopened our firehouse. But what happened was in 14 months it was closed, 14 people died in this area, and we said that would happen. We were a high fire incident area, arson still not as bad as it was, but that was the tipping point, and we fought and they said “You cant fight City Hall” we said, “yes you can, now you might get your ass kicked but you got to fight.,.” So that was an issue and was all about public safety it was about our buildings and it was also about pride. You come to our block? to close our firehouse when its this busy? are you crazy? you would never have gone to Riverdale, you would never have to the Upper East Side or the West Side in the 80’s and tried to close their fire house you wouldn’t you came to the South Bronx, it was Environmental Racism and it affected the environment, you came down to a community of color which had a horrible voting record, we should be ashamed of ourselves we vote like a bunch of knuckleheads, we don't vote and we had elected officials who were clueless and they've gotten better i’ll say that. This fight galvanized the community on many level. the churches the civic groups, when it reopened hallelujah. The next phase was they were tied to other crazy things and now we had the South Bronx People for Change, whatever are the issues this is how you organize: community based organizing. and we had the tools and we had the structure and we had allies throughout the whole South Bronx and so that was a wonderful thing and then we wanted to get a traffic light, 12 years we fought for a traffic light we finally got a traffic light. Gimme a break it doesn't take 12 years to get a traffic light in Times Square area it Doesnt take 12 years to get a traffic light in Riverdale, it takes 12 years to get a traffic light in the South Bronx. Why? why? okay? It begs the question, “Gimme a break will ya?” And also one or two [hone calls to the elected official he gets on the things and I’m not talking about under the table I’m talking about right on top of the table just get it done okay so people don’t get hit by cars, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand this stuff. So finally something positive in the sense of… there was an abandoned lot on 151st street and one of the brothers in the church said why don’t we make a community garden there, and that was a good sign to me that we were saying were going to be proactive instead of reactive. Fighting the city which we get put in a reactive situation. lets create a garden and it was done in conjunction with my job at that point in time which was group homes for handicapped people and the garden would be something that would be green for the community, grow vegetable plants and all the beautiful things, and also get people who have been isolated because of their physical disability and mental retardation, they lived in institutions back in the day. This is a good place where they could garden and meet people and get involved. And the community garden came out of that and it’s been amazing and it brought together lots of people, we have music in the garden, we grow stuff, we have a barbecue pit, we have celebrations, we celebrate Halloween, Easter we, celebrate lots of things in the garden, and it’s become a community center and the point of all of this… I’m going around the Mulberry Bush - “how’d you get involved.” I did not get involved because i’ll be honest with you because of the importance of greenery, that was part of it, but… it was anger. It was also survival… and it was also like, “Wait a minute other parts of the community have great resources how come we don’t what it wrong with us.” And part of it is you say, “Okay take responsibility” and part of is I don't talk about the man the man dump on us even though I do believe the man does dump on us whoever the man is the establishment we had to get some creditability and we also said to the powers that be, and we had to learn to use the system in the City of New York to say if we want a garden we’ll get a garden you know follow the rules and get a garden. So all the focus was the children. Our kids deserve a nice, green, safe place to plant and learn something and come together. The fight for the firehouse was to save buildings but the most vulnerable people were the seniors the children the people with disabilities, and thats what drove us crazy that these sons of… of… guns would dare to put us in that position. Well, you put us in that position were going to fight. And thats what we did. I would rather spend more time being proactive because we still seem like we’re fighting so many other powers that be. But thanks to the South Bronx People for Change it gave us the tools and mechanisms to see things in our community which need to be improved. And then use the system to get it done. Do your due diligence and do your work and make it happen and thats what we learned to do. It’s and intoxicating feeling. It happens as a group and happens as a community and it’s empowering and it teaches the young people this is how you live your life, wherever you go, you don’t let nobody treat you like a second class citizen and don't let nobody dump on you. But you have to create a group thats going to work together to try to have a good quality of life and you deserve that. It’s not silly. For example the firehouse, the firehouse has been there since 1924 maybe before that, we said and were people of faith, the South Bronx People of Change had Mosques, Catholic churches Lutheran churches Episcopal churches, we didn’t have a synagogue but if there was one they would’ve been on board we would’ve tried to bring in our Hebrew brothers. we said this, god almighty but our firehouse up there because it was to save peoples lives. Ed Koch has got it all wrong. Because he thinks he has the power to come down here. Now he had the power and he exerted that power and he did it and what did it get him, 14 people died, he didn’t even save money for the city, knucklehead. There was a play on broadway once, “Your arm’s to short to box with god.” God put it there and we kept saying, “God, put it back” and he did put it back, now we organized and we pushed on the ground, and in the courts, with the elected officials and it was successful, but we give all the power and thanks to God, everyone else helped and that’s a good thing. And the same with the community garden it’s an ongoing thing it’s a lot of work to keep a garden going, but that’s a long way around, a lot of that stuff for me personally came from anger and indignation that, “here we go again,” and “Just stop doing this to our people, this is ridiculous, you guys, stop neglecting us, stop looking the other way. and stop saying what you say, ‘We can get away with this stuff in the South Bronx.’” and its been our legacy, waste transfer station, we had a medical waste incinerator, a lot of issues they dumped on us because we were politically disorganized and because some people were taking money under the table, so that’s a little, but where it all came from now I'm glad that historians and students are learning what happened to us because we were like soldiers in the trenches, and if somebody asked whats going on, “I don't really know whats going on they're shootin’ at me,” we don’t want to be violent were pacifists, we practiced civil disobedience, we stood arm and arm, we are not against the police but they sent the police, but we were in the trenches, so we’re fighting, when the smoke clears it’s important to understand the context and what exactly happened, and why? So it’s not repeated so that we can pass on these tools which we can pass onto the next generation. we say this look i touch that firehouse every day of my life, they may want to come back, we watch that firehouse like a hawk, and the same with the garden, our garden was on the list to be auctioned in the city of New York, and we had to fight for our garden, same thing, a lawsuit citywide with other gardening group, demonstration. They used to come with a bulldozer at five in the morning and drive it in and try to trash the garden and then by the time you got there it was back to an empty lot again. And say, “sorry guys, close it padlock it.” Putting the police in that terrible position, because the cops don't like that either you're using the cops to be like the Gestapo on the community. 

DG: So they bulldozed your garden and you had to keep building it back up?

MR: Well no see they didn't bulldoze our garden, but we had a plan we had those airhorns, we had the people across the street with airhorns and a phone chain and if someone saw a bulldozer at six in the morning and we were going to run up and lay down on the sidewalk, and say, “Go ahead run it over” But I know other gardens Cabo Rojo garden was bulldozed one of my buddies climbed up the tree, and was in the tree and it was like a standoff, now they bulldozed as far as they could and he wasn’t coming out of that bloody tree, it was a demonstration it was to try to prove, but eventually he came down, I don't know if they arrested him, but that was the story with him, but they bulldozed a lot of gardens and I was also part of a group called South Bronx United Gardeners, there were 22 gardens around here we wanted to save them all, I knew we weren't going to save them all, but I said what if we save half, gardens have to stick up for themselves, South Bronx United Gardeners were successful because half of the gardens were saved, then the developers came and nothing against the developers, but we were like, “We took over these gardens when no one was down here and we built them into beautiful gardens. now you wanna come here?” The garden is city land okay? There was a building there once that became usually burned down and then the city demolished the building and then all that rubble laid in that lot and some groups had the idea lets make a garden and they cleared all that out and they put all that dirt in and they put this nice garden, they used to pay 1 dollar a year for that lease and its city land. now technically they were supposed to tell you… half of the gardens were saved because evolutions… the gardens became true community resources and true community meeting places and we have very little green space around here and they became a little pocket of heaven for some people. and they are our green space, they’d become also educational centers because the kids are learning stuff the kids our going to come in our garden [in a couple of weeks] see real plants see real compost bins, see real stuff, right next store so they don't have to go to the Botanical Garden, well they should go… but they could walk right next store and see the whole thing, cherry trees, birds, so it created… it evolved way beyond our wildest dreams which is a wonderful thing which happens…

DG: so just to give a time frame, when did this whole thing start, with the firehouse and everything.

MR: They started with the firehouse in 1986, we fought for 3 years, and in 1989 they closed, on May 4th 1989 and it reopened July 1st 1990, 14 months later and thank god it’s been open. and I don't think they’ll ever mess with it again but you can never say never. And then the garden came around… it was before that, it started in 1983, but the garden started to get threatened in the 1990s so then things that you think like we got our garden it’s great it’s beautiful… and then all the sudden you started hearing, “They’re going to auction your garden off?” And your like “what?” The garden has a block and a lot number and for the block and the lot number for all the vacant lots it’s listed as… a vacant lot… so some guy downtown sees a block and lot number in the Bronx and says for some reason, “I like 151st street, thats my lucky number, it’s really cheap, but they don't know its a community garden because on the paper it says vacant lot and then it became a community garden, that was a citywide lawsuit and Elliot Spitzer was the attorney General, finally it was all ironed out, a lot of demonstrations, people got arrested, civil disobedience, it was peaceful. finally the city agreed… two major garden groups, Bette Middler’s Group, New York Restoration and the trust for public land, bought a nice bunch of all these community gardens, the Parks Department said, “Okay we won’t touch these gardens and the rest can go to these developers.” Some gardens got consolidated, our garden, we didn't know it, our garden was saved we were part of the lawsuit, this particular day we knew they were going to court and they were, “like we should know by three o’clock” and I called the lawyers and Giuliani was the mayor then. they said “your garden is saved” Giuliani… they struck a deal but your garden is saved. We were like “who?” they said someone bought your garden but not a developer, a trust. We didn’t know it took two weeks we found out it was the Trust for Public Land so our garden will be a Garden forever, whatever forever means… so our garden is saved. but again they were going to come down with bulldozers and clear our garden. but thank god our garden was saved… that would've been somewhere around 1993, whenever Elliot Spitzer, whenever the agreement came with the Giuliani administration, but it never would've happened if the pressure was not brought city wide, but Elliot Spitzer was the champion of that… he did some crazy stuff… but he ironed out that whole agreement him and his staff, i’ll give him credit his people used to come to the South Bronx United Gardeners meetings and… the classic story: David and Goliath…so the Israelites saw the Goliath and said “We can not win,” and David said “he’s a giant, how can i miss him?” And he took the rock and hit the giant because he was a big target… and thats what I saw that we were doing. And they, “Said you can’t fight City Hall are you crazy?” and we were like, “no.” After the firehouse was reopened, there was an article in the Daily News, “A little engine that could” you can fight City Hall and win because thats what happened. you might get you're ass kicked but you got to fight, if they beat you fair and square or they beat you dishonestly then they beat you but at least you just didn't fold, you put up a fight, but the fight is never over, and they told us the fight was over at 41, and it looked over we were crying in the street, then we got madder, we got even crazier because what the hell can you do now? you took the bloody firehouse… we fought with a new anger and energy. but always would hope… it was about Koch but it wasn't about… we saw Koch at parades and we’d say, “Do the right thing, Ed… You can’t close the company.. .you’re doing the wrong thing.. .” He refused to look at the big picture, same thing with the garden. I know it’s about money. You can put up a thing and collect taxes and taxes, I know that, but you see the kids come on earth day, you see the joy the children have, can we just have a little piece a green? Don't you have enough money? When is enough enough? It’s a quality of life issue, and we deserve that. And we built it. It's a wonderful thing when the community achieves. It’s a powerful thing to the children. 

DG: So it sound like what you’re saying in the beginning when you started our with all this stuff the city was like this unstoppable madness and you had no say. Do you think that changed over time, because of the community’s work became more aware of you guys?

MR: Yes I think because of the South Bronx People for Change, which was here fighting for firehouse, over in the Hunts Point section of the Bronx was fighting against drugs and prostitution with the same tools. and I think we built kind of a track record, which somebody once said to us, “you guys are like pit bulls and they just don’t want to deal with you anymore.” We went through the proper channels and we were schooled by some brothers in Brooklyn because they closed their firehouse int he 1970s, we went to the fire commissioner’s house we went to the mayor’s house,  every parade in New York City and we’d go with sign and when we saw the mayor running we’d yell “Don’t close engine 41,” and we know they were like, “we don’t want to hear about their house any more.” because we were such a giant pain in the house and that politics get in their ear. Again were a faith based organization there’s a story in the scripture Jesus tells… where the unjust judge, the widow comes and says, “You have to give me my share” and he says, “no I’m not giving it to you, I fear neither god nor man” and she’s a widow so she has no children or husband to fight for her so she keeps knocking on the door and eventually he says once more, “I fear neither god nor man but give her what she wants just to shut her up.” and part of our thing was our persistence. It also about speaking truth to power. why would you close our firehouse? answer me, Don’t gimme no bullshit about money. That the question, why? If you’re mad enough to do it come to the block with the bulldozers meet with the people explain it to the people talk about some options and then do it but they don't they send their minions down here. Buts that’s right, it was this machine and we would just get run over and peel ourselves like in cartoons off the sidewalk and say, “They're right we are a bunch of idiots around here,” and then a lot of self hate comes in and you know… but what we experienced was learning the tools to say there’s ways to addressing this. trying to speak truth to power, using the system and then going around the system and putting pressure… and I think it did build a track record we’re still fighting in this community, were fighting in the New York City housing authority to get peoples apartments cleaned up now South Bronx People for Change doesn't exist anymore there’s a new group called South Bronx Churches, not really that new, and they've done a lot of good stuff in the community but it’s the same concept, organize, put pressure on the politicians, hold them accountable. Our elected officials in that paster were sometimes very week, and normally thats their job to hold them accountable the lines get blurred because sometimes they all seem to be at the same table but in the same bed with each other, they might say something to your face and then walk away and say, “Do what you want, don't listen to those people they’re a pain in the neck,” and we told all of our people you got to fight with us, and we made enemies and we said if you can’t do it, we’ll vote you out, we’re telling you to do your job, don’t you get paid to do this and they get offended, but we’re trying to have a nice relationships, and we’d pull that card… it’s not a card it’s to hold them accountable. And that’s what they do in Riverdale they tell them to their face. They call he politicians and say, “You sit down we’re going to talk to you” and “You go to City Hall and do this,” and they represent the people, around here it was like a third world country its like a South American dictatorship, and these guys in power were out to lunch, making a lot of money, and they’re in bed with the developers as opposed to representing the people in the street. and it will never end but the struggle continues on many other issues still.

DG: You say a lot they had the tools the resources when you started out. Tell me a little bit more what kind of things they had how they helped how that community built over the years a success, what sort of tools they had what sort of resources they had.

MR: It was a small group that got funding through the Catholic church and some government money for like inner city justice campaigns and basically what they would do is: base up. people power… it was bilingual, Spanish and English, people power, saying, “would you like us to come to your church?” and they provided training, my wife went to the training and I came behind her and she got all of these things going, examine the power structure and who has the power in this situation and you go from the mayor and city council and community board, and you learn the system and then we walked that walk, so they would help you with that, also what they really said was “What is your issues?” First these building on Cortlandt Avenue were being demolished and we say, “Stop demolishing them, we got blocks and blocks of empty block, renovate them, there’s good structures.” We used to go around with a stencil and stencil the building, “This building is claimed by the people.” It meant nothing but again it was what are these people doing in the street? Civil disobedience, this is our building don’t dare touch it. On top of that there were people meeting with HUD and with the city saying, “stop doing this,” young people of color and white, it was a great group learning the power structure, with Koch we’d try to hit the community board, the community board would say, “Well you know we’ll try but…” …”okay write a letter to tell the mayor”…, “I don’t know if I can write a letter you know” cuz you saw they were afraid, they didn’t want to get on the bad side of the mayor and we’d say, “Okay to hell with them.” You saw it they’re in bed, so don’t find them and then the borough president “Well you know the mayor you know how the mayor’s a pain in the ass.” “He is a pain in the ass but wait a minute.” I’ll never forget, once we went to a meeting where there was elected officials, our best friends with the fire union, we went bang! screaming and yelling and shit and when we left the meeting one of my friends from the fire union called me, and said “They had no idea you guys were so militant” and I said “good, good” You can’t buy us you cant buy us they’d say, “what if we just put ambulances in the building, what if we gave you guys like two thousand dollars for you organization.” And we could not be bought cuz we’d say, “no ambulances, 41 and 41 alone.” A lot of people can be bought, organizations can be bought, but that organization was so incredible, for example this is what… and I threw this out I had to go give a talk at the gentrification conference about oral history and this was basically ***explains the chart** One of our friends in Brooklyn said, “Take ‘em to court get some lawyers pro bono, reach out to any group in the city, fire protection, community gardens.” It’s about faith it’s about believing, its about churches, churches are full of nuts and dedicated people, churches scared the shit out of elected officials, they’d say, “Wait a minute how did all these… they got muslims, catholics… lutherans.” We got a letter from Jesse Jackson just before he ran for president back in the late 80’s, we got a letter from the Rainbow Coalition, we were so proud of that, I swear when Ed Koch saw that he went to the bathroom and said, “Wait a minute, gimme a break, why are they reaching out across the country are they nuts? this is nothing, what are they crazy?” But we reach people of faith and when you have demonstrations, they come. Community awareness make the neighborhood realize community action, we had a prayer vigil every night at 7 O’clock in front of the people one or two people rain cold snow somebody would put a hand on the firehouse and pray thats what we believed. And then the press, this was before the internet, mailing things, snail mail, and the press was wonderful to us, and that’s a big job… this is what the South Bronx People for Change… that you have to hit this on every front. At least once a week you tried to hit somewhere, you tried to do something whether it was a phone call, a letter, something, and you just don't let it die. thats hard, keep breathing life into this thing. Everyone wants it do die I swear to god! Even the pastor in the church sometimes will… when our firehouse reopened the paster came and he’s a good man and he came and, we knew this, the pastor came and blessed it, the church bells rang, it was like a movie it was fabulous. He said to Francine my wife, “I never thought you guys would get this firehouse reopened,” and I said, “I knew it… but you’d in the kitchen… “he’s a knucklehead…” because he didn’t have faith, well i’m not saying he didn't have faith he had faith in his religion but he had been a beaten down dude he didn't have faith in the community… and were walking on water we didn't know what the hell we were doing we were a bunch of knuckleheads. and you know… they say courage is fear that has said its prayers. We were scared shitless, we were getting beat up constantly… not literally emotionally. But we kept going forward because we were together, it was a unity. so i dunno… 

DG: Now about the incinerator, 

It was late 90’s, there was a medical waste incinerator over on 138th Street and Locust Avenue which is about two miles from here a mile and a half, it was  amedical waste incinerator and they would only burn red bag medical waste. It was the only functioning incinerator left in the city of New York, but they built it, they BUILT it in the 90’s. The jewish community of Riverdale said to some people in the South Bronx, “you know they’re building a medical waste incinerator near you?” we said, I don’t think so, who does that anymore. Red bag medical waste is a biological problem it could have disease, so theres a problem there, so when you burn it you burn plastic so now you create a chemical problem. You try to solve a biological problem but you create a chemical problem so the point of it was this technology of incineration was antiquated, you don’t burn anything anymore, you autoclave everything. So this is part of what we had to learn: autoclave means you get all the red bag stuff and you steam it and it becomes a giant block of plastic and the pathogens are dead, and you created steam and steam is not pollution, you could use it has landfill you could recycle it, and we were like wait a minute are you guys crazy? And they hadn’t even finished building and it was “No… it’s going to be staate of the aaart” *fake reassuring* and we were like, “State of the art my ass!” So they built it and community pressure now, tried to get a lawsuit, environmental impact study and a lot of elected officials were in bed with that company that built it. the head of the community board was indicted by the FBI because he took fifty thousand dollars from that medical company that built that incinerator. And we were like. “here we go again.” the South Bronx Clean Air Coalition, and that was environmental racism 101 and we did a lot of stuff to fight and push, honestly I did not want to get involved with that I’m done, the firehouse, the garden, we won I’m going to take a vacation, but the guys I got to know them and they’re my brothers now and it’s that voice in your head “oh bullshit i ain’t takin this no more” and it’s “what are you doing to our kids are you guys crazy?” they are nuts they are… their drunk with money, and they see money, and we’re secondary and their pocket came first. and the medical waste incinerator… burning, burning, i smelt it many times, but you would not smell smoke if you got close to it you'd smell a horrible nasty smell of like decaying food and of like a thing that gets in the back of your throat… like a dead body. we fought we fought we fought, legal, the churches again, but the South Bronx clean air coalition was its own entity, we applied a lot of the same principle, we had demonstration and everything. We brought the kids, Bronx Lebanon hospital.. to had the medical waste incinerator a hostpital had to hold the license. Bronx Lebanon Hospital held the license. We used to meet with the heads of BLH and say, “What’s wrong with you? How could you do this in could conscious.” Becasue they got all their medical waste done for nothing. We used to go to BLH with 2-3 busloads of kids lay on the sidewalk and draw chalk marks and every kid would have a mask on and then the kids write the name and we’d say, “You're killing us,” this was before everyone was talking about asthma, we were ahead of the curve. and they were like “It’s not really… it doesn't effect the air” they tell you this to your face and… we fought we fought we fought… at that time the governor was Pataki who was a republican and D’Amato who was a senator was a republican. and we had gained critical mass and the looked really bad, and more stuff was coming out in the press and we wouldn't let up and we kept bringing busload for demonstrations. *giggling* get in the back of the bus with 60 kids and then the guys from Parks Department would have to come out and look at these sidewalks, I’m sure they got those guys with the hoses. It makes everyone who walks into BLH, “wait a min whats going on?” and you say, “The hospital’s holding the permit for the incinerator and they’re burning the medical waste and we have asthma.” and it begs the question, “why are you doing that?” We finally got… the company agreed to get an expert in to come and examine the place they paid for the guy, they gave him total access and he wrote a scathing report how horrible it was in there, bags popping needles falling on the floor poor workers are picking em up with their hand with gloves, throwin’ em back in, the whole thing was a goddam disaster, we always said this he wrote a report that was the torpedo that sunk the ship but they bought the torpedo they paid him… and then Pataki was the hero now where the hell he came from… we don’t care who does it just do it and he did it and it closed. It is still a waste transfer station but they don’t burn no more, and they had these stacks, we wanted reassurance that they were not going to burn again, because they kept the stacks up ad we knew that they had the mechanism. we went to their headquarters in Brooklyn with two busloads of kids and they came out like “what do you want? were no burning no more.” and one of the kids said why don't you take down the stacks? and we were like yeah why don't you take down the stacks? and then you know how things work a few days later, “were going to take down the stacks okay” that was our victory, they had a crane and they said, “Who’s going to press the button to lift the crane?” and they said the borough president and we said “The same borough president who looked the other way when they built that thing?” I don’t think thats right and I know the borough president he’s a nice guy, but we were like “really? The Borough President? I don’t know if thats right.” And they were like. “Well who do you want and we were like one of the kids.” It was the kid and the borough president *giggles* so I always told the kids after that and then we asked them for reparation money, and a lot for the churches and the schools got ten, twenty thousand dollars from Browning-Ferris Industries, and I always told the kids, “Now some neighborhoods will learn history, but to the day you die I want you kids not to just learn the history of the incinerator, you made history, you closed that thing.” Those kids wrote letters to the offices and they're learning how the system works, and don’t spin your wheels on low level people who cant effect it who can effect it the governor go right to the governor and keep going. and then look at that gov. and say how long does he got (If he ain’t gonna change his mind) so lets get the guys who are running next, these are not quick battles these are wars. once your into you’re into it, you're getting yourself beat up a lot and it’s emotionally draining. When it’s a community we joke sometimes and its like war stories like “Remember the days when we did this?” And you cant do this anymore you’d be arrested in a New York minute now-a-days or you gotta get a permit, we would do stuff bang we’d just do stuff, and it was not that far away 1990’s, 2000’s. One of my main points that I keep saying is, “If you could bottle up all that energy do you know how many parks we could’ve built and you made us fight an incinerator? Why didn’t you just let us do it the first week and let us bottle that energy and build more parks and more community gardens and paint murals and do positive things?” But it's the hand were dealt don’t cry about it and just… that model works and those are the tools we learned from the South Bronx People for Change, and they didn't invent them. In hindsight it work and it brings together people, it take a toll and it brings people together. 

DG: So you said your retired what sort of things do you nowadays in the community?

MR: Yeah yeah… I’m never retired till they put me in the ground. Now I’m trying to be involved. There’s always that reactive stuff that we have to you know keep the wolves away from the doors cuz the wolves keep coming and they smell money down here and blood so i still try to be involved in improving police protection, i do help a little bit with the South Bronx churches, which is going to public meetings putting pressure on NYCHA. There’s a big public meeting here with the police commissioner in a few weeks in our church we’re gonna have five hundred people here and say what we need we got some good steps, but they’re not giving us enough cops. But then I stay involved with the garden of course, and I’m all now about proactive, the school has a garden club, I help with the garden club once a week, it’s all fun in games, I firmly believe in that too. We have a stick ball tournament once a year, we have the Easter egg hunt, our garden got totally renovated last year, fabulous, I volunteer at the botanical garden I’m on a committee, big deal… ‘cuz thats the other thing try to be connected across the board, the Bronx Land Trust I’m involved with that, yeah I do stay involved with “The greening community” and then my wife’s a teacher so if I can help her school. And I’m involved with the documentary center, anything to help them keep the building clean, we’ll build frames for the next show, this again elevates our community. I myself, I’m from the Bronx when the documentary deicide to come in I said to myself is this guy crazy? Does he know where he’s putting this documentary center, and the answer is he is crazy, *laughs*  but I love him he’s my brother now because you would do it if you weren't *laughs* but it’s made such a magnificent difference. So anything thats involved in young people and energy and positivity, and the magical word is fun. If it’s fun for the kids, and if it’s not fun lets make it fun. What was important to me was play, thats what let us feel safe, that we played games and what we learned from play was yeah were all different colors and teams and we could get really mad at each other, fight with each other, and then it had to end, and you had to shake hands. So I stay busy and there’s enough things that are going on I play music in the church *phone rings* Im a musician…*leaves to answer phone*

DG: I think were going to wrap up pretty soon, do you have any more things to say on that

MR: No… Me personally i’m so grateful to God, I think live is a gift, i have experience now, theres so many wonderful people i also think its very important to be part of a larger community and I’m never bored, now that’s selfish and personal, but if I can do something to help this community because I’m a part of it, this community gave me so much, so i wanna be able to give back so that how I feel.

DG: so when you tell someone where you're from what do you tell them?

MR: You can always have fun with it but when people say where ya from I say I'm from the Bronx and if they ask where i say the south Bronx everyone one in the world *laughs* has heard about the South Bronx. a lot of people say “You Don’t still live down do you” so I get that a lot and then I get “You didn't live your family down there do you” we raised each other okay? Yeah you still get that eyeball that theres something wrong with you or you're a masochist.

DG: You feel like the South Bronx as a whole is your community and neighborhood and not just melrose?

MR: well melrose is my stomping ground but no I’m a product of the South Bronx, and maybe theres some sense of pride, but we've been through hell we’re a much maligned community and I've met people who taught me we need to be the champions of our community and we also need to be honest reflectors in our community. I don’t want to be running this bloody neighborhood but to say sometimes among each other, I like this expression that you young people use, “We gotta step up our game, we have to improve our conduct” now some peoples perceptions are wrong too but I’m proud to say I’m from the South Bronx and I’m proud to have been here all my life and I’ve so many different things.

DG: If you’d left what would you miss most,

I would miss the people, I would miss my church and the school, and I would miss the people, because this thing is full of characters to and the familiarity, I feel at home here, I’m not blind, I feel safe, now there’s certain blocks certain times of day I would not safe, I could walk down my own block if I saw like six dudes walking up the block I say to myself I might be in some serious trouble here *laughs* but I have plan b, my escape route, if I need to use my escape route, but I would miss the people. The energy, there’s a tremendous energy in this community, these relationships are my entire life, these things I’m involved in, I would miss the overlap in this community if were going to do something we tell the documentary center, we tell the church we tell the paster, we tell the people on the block now they all may not come but theres a good possibility there a lot of overlay and people who are good in this neighborhood, I’m surprised that their egos go in their back pocket, the young man you met Ryan, he’s a wonderful young man he’s a scholar he’s going to a fabulous school and his family comes to the garden and they help. Mario his father, we’ll do something at the garden, and i say i know he ain’t coming and he comes like the Calvary, quiet and he helps, and that sense of we need each other. somebody taught me this a doctor of epidemiology who helps us with our firehouse Dr. Rod Wallace that poor people, working class people whatever you wanna say, we don't have a safety net of bank accounts, property, jewelry, stocks and bonds, what is our safety net? Each other we need each other we literally need each other to get ourselves out of a jam sometimes. To borrow something to assist each other, things that we really need and we depend on each other, a good majority of the time, our wealth, our treasure is each other, and our institutions like our churches and our parishes and things like that.

DG: Great. awesome,

*laughs*